Crown

SuzyF:

Dario:

DaveGordon:

For you Swissies - I just did the sums on an import..  a UK-supplied, LHD, German-spec car works out at 150k all taxes paid.  This new CO2 sanction/tax on imports works out at 16.7k CHF! 

(I've had my name on a list at a dealer for the last couple of years..)

How was your calculation done, dont get it

137k euro german price - 19% german Mwst + 8% swiss Mwst + 4% swiss import taxes leaves me around 155 k swiss francs ( 1.23 Euro/sfr), but on this the co2 swiss taxes = around 172 000 sfr for a new german gt3 instead of 190 000 sfr for a swiss car.

now if i am correct and swiss dealer give an euro discount difference may only bee 10 000 sfr or so for german Import car vs swiss car

let me know if i am calculating wrong

Think your calculating is correct. You do get a Euro-discount and with a little bit of good talking you will be pretty close to the german-import pricetag I think. At least for the Carrera (4) and Carrera (4)S models.

I guess for the GT3 it will depend on how much cars the dealerships can sell. If there's a shortage of cars compared to customers then dealerships will be a lot less freehanded with discounts.
 

--

I'm just another female petrolhead :)

Davis did his calculation starting with UK prices in £  . I did not check it out, but as I recall , it is even cheaper for us to get them in the UK, versus Germany due to even better £/CHF exchange .

He did order and import his Boxster from the UK with left hand drive 

And welcome to the forum, Suzy 

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

4trac:

What's with you guys and rear seats?? You already complained that the 991 rear seats didn't get large enough, and the GT3 market would get killed if it looked like a car for soccer dads... 

You need to study this Porsche equation:   Rate of growth of your small children = rate of size increase of rear 911 seats x 20.  

 

No rear seats = no possibility to take wife and second kid with me = I barely get to drive the car. 

OK? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Controversial title, what do you guys think?

"Why 'GT3' is now a trim level, not a statement of intent"

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=133&i=27280

RC:

4trac:

What's with you guys and rear seats?? You already complained that the 991 rear seats didn't get large enough, and the GT3 market would get killed if it looked like a car for soccer dads... 

You need to study this Porsche equation:   Rate of growth of your small children = rate of size increase of rear 911 seats x 20.  

 

No rear seats = no possibility to take wife and second kid with me = I barely get to drive the car. 

OK? 

Christian, I understand that you're a family man, and to take a wife with the kid you have a Panamera (or Cayenne). GT3 it is not this kind of car, it's not a family sports car even a bit. I cannot imagine a GT3 with 3 or 4 people inside....After all GT3 aka track car, even if you won't take it to the track often. In your case I would leave one of two - Pana. or Cay. and would take a GT3 for my DD. Othervise, you can go for the Turbo again

SportCarGroup:

RC:

4trac:

What's with you guys and rear seats?? You already complained that the 991 rear seats didn't get large enough, and the GT3 market would get killed if it looked like a car for soccer dads... 

You need to study this Porsche equation:   Rate of growth of your small children = rate of size increase of rear 911 seats x 20.  

 

No rear seats = no possibility to take wife and second kid with me = I barely get to drive the car. 

OK? 

Christian, I understand that you're a family man, and to take a wife with the kid you have a Panamera (or Cayenne). GT3 it is not this kind of car, it's not a family sports car even a bit. I cannot imagine a GT3 with 3 or 4 people inside....After all GT3 aka track car, even if you won't take it to the track often. In your case I would leave one of two - Pana. or Cay. and would take a GT3 for my DD. Othervise, you can go for the Turbo again

yes..I mean where would this end?..soon we want a GPS coordinated shift program set up by Walter Röhrl on the race track..because it will be even faster. A GT3 must be loud, it must have a wing, no possibilty for children etc..otherwise its not a GT3..in case you want 4 seats,..get an RS5, Nissan GTr..or from Porsche: panamera GTS..there are so many options. Why cant we at least leave the GT3 alone....?

Probably this GT3 will be the best selling one..fine..but that would also bring down its second hand prices after 5 years conserably (-70-80K?). I just hope the 991 GT3 will stay rare..and this would also protect prices...and I heard that Porsche on intention will this time not flood the market with cars..they will keep supply lower than demand..which is a good thing.

For me the GT3 seems like a compromise in politics:..to appeal the largest audience..you position yourself somewhere in the middle..you will get the largest votes..but target for halfway compromises..but if thats in the end best the solution for the country..is another matter.

That sums up pretty well my opinion on the new GT3 and the political situation in Europe (sorry for my link to politics..)

Porker:

Controversial title, what do you guys think?

"Why 'GT3' is now a trim level, not a statement of intent"

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=133&i=27280

the link does not work

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Just checked....it works

Here's a copy:

Roots in racing. Not posing.' boasted Porsche not so long ago. After a couple of days to digest it I'm not so sure this applies to the new GT3 in the way it has the previous ones. And this is about more than that gearbox; brilliant as it surely is the new 991 GT3 has subtly but fundamentally shifted the goalposts of what made previous ones so special for geeks like us.

That'll be the roots in racing bit then

Look at the last model in the context of the 997 range and the hoops you'd jump through to end up with one. You'd have started thinking 'yeah, GT3, like the idea of that.' And then began the process of qualification. Level one? Gearbox. Don't want a manual? That's you out. More interested in all-weather traction, in-gear grunt or vmax and 0-62 bragging rights? Off you go and buy a Turbo instead. And lots of fun you'd have had too - no shame in any of that.

If, however, you'd think 'top bloke' hearing the chief engineer for the GT3 range dismiss top speed as 'a by-product' you'd be through to the next level. Having decided you'd happy with a two-wheel drive, normally aspirated 911 with a manual gearbox the next question would have been are you going to track it? As in, would you ACTUALLY track it? Or just think you wanted to when actually a nice road-going 911 with a few tasty trimmings was actually what you wanted? A GTS or a thoughtfully specced Carrera 2 S perhaps, both also under the radar of any midlife crisis wannabe racer accusations from friends and family.

There's more to this than just the gearbox

If you'd got this far and not been swayed by any of the above you might just have fit the profile. Of course, if you were taking it further and wanted something with an RS and/or 4.0 badge Porsche played its final joker - the real end of level boss. Did you want this car enough to put up with some really, really tacky graphics? One loud enough to turn every head within half a mile but equipped with a hairtrigger biting point that meant they'd then be primed to point and laugh when you stalled it - again.

All of which is a very long-winded way of saying very few people will have ended up buying a GT3 by accident. Or keeping one, little things like the fact the pedals are only set for heel'n'toe when you're using track braking pressure meaning you need to be truly dedicated to enjoy one day in, day out.

So that glorious, unapologetic elitism is gone; likewise the nerdy joy in knowing your 911 had a different engine derived from a racing car, not a Carrera. In its place, the new GT3 offers eye-boggling gadgetry and pace, democratised and accessible to all up to a point. Where previous GT3s demanded a base level of competence anyone will be able to drive this one fast and feel like a hero, even if you'll still need big brass ones and a lot of talent to fully exploit its talents. Even then the opportunities to do that will be so fleeting and the stakes and speeds so high it risks irrelevance.

This stands for something else now

Overly romantic fanboy that I am I love the fact that you see more GT3s parked outside hostels at the 'ring than you ever will driving into the Square Mile or Canary Wharf. And they're the ones streaked in brake dust, windscreens covered in noise test stickers with and with empty Red Bull cans rattling around the passenger seat. Which brings us back to 'roots in racing, not posing.' For all the spine-tingling 9,000rpm redline, technology and talent I fear the new GT3 will be too accommodating of those more interested in the latter. And they were already perfectly well served by other 911s.

Before I sign off I, of course, reserve the right to renounce every word I've just written as utter cobblers at the first sniff of a drive...

Dan

Porker:

Controversial title, what do you guys think?

"Why 'GT3' is now a trim level, not a statement of intent"

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=133&i=27280

It had to happen.  The new GT3 has unleashed a lot of controversial discussions. The PDK only strategy and the new engine, which is based on the Carrera S engine, kind of stirred up emotions. I also think that the fact that the new GT3 weights actually a little bit more than the Carrera S is also an issue here. Die hard GT3 addicts may not be happy with this car but to be honest, I don't quite understand why. Yes, Porsche hasn't raced the new GT3 yet and the technology may not be race-proof yet but overall, the new GT3 seems to be a very fine product and considering the price tag, I compared it to a fully optioned Carrera S, the new GT3 is quite the offer.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Porker:

Controversial title, what do you guys think?

"Why 'GT3' is now a trim level, not a statement of intent"

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=133&i=27280

Its a silly article before seeing as no one has even driven it.  However, I think that becasue the old GT3s were the last top end track cars that were still manual (bordering on feral ), a (possibly large) proportion of the customers and most of the internet admirers were drawn to it.  AP said they have widened the bandwidth but that seems only partially true true - on paper they have also shifted it away from this group and as effectively abanoning them so they're going to complain.  But they should wait.

Gen II Cayman S

Porker:

Controversial title, what do you guys think?

"Why 'GT3' is now a trim level, not a statement of intent"

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=133&i=27280

I'd like to shake the hand of the guy that wrote that article because it reflects exactly how I feel...

The GT3 and RS were once cup cars with an interior and enough tweaking to make them road legal!

if you want a four seater and no rear wing, you don't want a GT3... There are 20 other variants of 911 more suited to your needs... These kind of ridiculous requests are exactly what this article is referring to.. It saddens me to see what Porsche are reducing this car to... Truely saddens me.... 

RC:

Porker:

Controversial title, what do you guys think?

"Why 'GT3' is now a trim level, not a statement of intent"

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=133&i=27280

It had to happen.  The new GT3 has unleashed a lot of controversial discussions. The PDK only strategy and the new engine, which is based on the Carrera S engine, kind of stirred up emotions. I also think that the fact that the new GT3 weights actually a little bit more than the Carrera S is also an issue here. Die hard GT3 addicts may not be happy with this car but to be honest, I don't quite understand why. Yes, Porsche hasn't raced the new GT3 yet and the technology may not be race-proof yet but overall, the new GT3 seems to be a very fine product and considering the price tag, I compared it to a fully optioned Carrera S, the new GT3 is quite the offer.

hi RC,

I thought the new engine is completely new except a few bolts...? You list everything..I dislike..but you write - you dont understand us..? Why?

The big plus of the GT3..is the price..you correctly noted that. Its almost a bargain..it can probably (maybe if its just the case) destroy a 458 ..and for half price - this is phenomenal. Also, it wouldnt make any sense to spec a 991S high up..because for same money you get a GT3..and if the demand and supply are well regulated..prices of 991 GT3s might be quite firm..opposed to normal 991S prices. Another reasone pro 991 GT3. With this relatively low price of the 991 GT3..a 991S makes even less sense..in fact I ruled it out completely..it doesnt exist anymore for me - even i theory. But for me it also shows - again - that the 991S is just too expensive..

The price is the big plus of the car..(although already a sharp increase from 997.2 GT3)..however, as you write correctly, no racing experience..is a big - VERY BIG minus for GT3. After all we are talking about a GT3.-.a racing version of the 911.

Porsche needs to put this engine now as quickly as possible in a 991 CUP or RSR..and win the 24h Le Mans..then many critics will disappear..I think that you can understand this or?

If the engine doesnt show up very soon..then there is no link between racing and GT3 anymore..it has no "raison d´etre" anymore then..

911rox:

Porker:

Controversial title, what do you guys think?

"Why 'GT3' is now a trim level, not a statement of intent"

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=133&i=27280

I'd like to shake the hand of the guy that wrote that article because it reflects exactly how I feel...

The GT3 and RS were once cup cars with an interior and enough tweaking to make them road legal!

if you want a four seater and no rear wing, you don't want a GT3... There are 20 other variants of 911 more suited to your needs... These kind of ridiculous requests are exactly what this article is referring to.. It saddens me to see what Porsche are reducing this car to... Truely saddens me.... 

yes..sadness here too..becaue the video in there.."racing - no posing"...is just great. This is how I became a Porsche fan, shaped my childhood etc..great cars, great times..but those days are not coming back. But we have to be fair, the fact that F1 or other racing series become such a misery is not Porsches mistake..

Neverthless, great video..

RC:

Porker:

Controversial title, what do you guys think?

"Why 'GT3' is now a trim level, not a statement of intent"

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=133&i=27280

It had to happen.  The new GT3 has unleashed a lot of controversial discussions. The PDK only strategy and the new engine, which is based on the Carrera S engine, kind of stirred up emotions. I also think that the fact that the new GT3 weights actually a little bit more than the Carrera S is also an issue here. Die hard GT3 addicts may not be happy with this car but to be honest, I don't quite understand why. Yes, Porsche hasn't raced the new GT3 yet and the technology may not be race-proof yet but overall, the new GT3 seems to be a very fine product and considering the price tag, I compared it to a fully optioned Carrera S, the new GT3 is quite the offer.

RC, the GT3 has always been quite the offer compared to the Carrera S... I drove both, back to back and was instantly attracted to the GT3 because it was more raw, stirred up more emotion and was solid enough to handle the riggers of track abuse. I was not interested in comfort, soft rides and quietness... I likened the C2S to a suped up version on the Nissan Sylvia I was already driving...

The fact that a once track focused car is now most appealing to those traditionally after the softer option is the problem in my view... Its becoming porky and soft by all indications... With the kind of market it now seems to be attracting, I doubt I'll come up against many at the track as they'll likely be boulevard cruising! I hope to be proven wrong 

GTlover:

I thought the new engine is completely new except a few bolts...? You list everything..I dislike..but you write - you dont understand us..? Why?

Two reasons I don't understand the complaints:

1. Nobody has actually tested the car yet

2. I doubt that Porsche would be dumb enough to put their reputation on the line for some easy cost saving

The GT3 has always been and will always be an emotional product. Most GT3 customers base their buying decision on emotions, less on brains. The GT3 is actually a pretty useless car if you don't track it. No rear seats, loud, uncomfortable (compared to 991 Carrera with PASM) and I bet that the PDK shifts won't be as comfortable too. 

Porsche is aware of this and Preuninger put his name and his good reputation on the line here, so i wouldn't worry. The only thing which worries me is that there could be initial issues (new PDK, new engine, new rear wheel steering, etc.) during the first 12 months but I have no doubt that the GT3 as a whole, will be a very satisfying product. I just wish Porsche would have added optional rear seats and a comfort delete option (no A/C, no PCM, no damping material, etc. etc. etc.) but otherwise, I am pretty satisfied with this car.

Does a racing heritage make you a better or faster driver? Nope. The GT3 will prove itself sooner or later and I understand the sentiments but I don't understand the whining.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

2. I doubt that Porsche would be dumb enough to put their reputation on the line for some easy cost saving.

Ummmm, they already have with us 997.2 owners. They gave us CLs preaching the motorsport theme, AP told us how they were lighter and would be faster to change and now that they have been proven wrong and wheels are flying all over youtube, their solution to protect their bottom line is that they'll pass the cost of replacement onto customers every 7000kms. Obviously the latest wheel fixing technology was not better then the former. And they obviously don't care enough about their reputation to right their wrong and keep their customers safe.

And you're sure this won't be the case with the new motor, pdk, rear steering or CLs for that matter? Really?

I would not be believing blindly in Porsche doing right by customers in this day and age wen VW whom own and control them have big loans to pay and money to make...

I will never buy another CL fitted Porsche again... I'd suggest any new owner of a 991GT3 has their dealer clearly define any CL maintenance schedule associated with track use... Be prepared for a shock with the pricing 

RC:

GTlover:

I thought the new engine is completely new except a few bolts...? You list everything..I dislike..but you write - you dont understand us..? Why?

Two reasons I don't understand the complaints:

1. Nobody has actually tested the car yet

2. I doubt that Porsche would be dumb enough to put their reputation on the line for some easy cost saving

The GT3 has always been and will always be an emotional product. Most GT3 customers base their buying decision on emotions, less on brains. The GT3 is actually a pretty useless car if you don't track it. No rear seats, loud, uncomfortable (compared to 991 Carrera with PASM) and I bet that the PDK shifts won't be as comfortable too. 

Porsche is aware of this and Preuninger put his name and his good reputation on the line here, so i wouldn't worry. The only thing which worries me is that there could be initial issues (new PDK, new engine, new rear wheel steering, etc.) during the first 12 months but I have no doubt that the GT3 as a whole, will be a very satisfying product. I just wish Porsche would have added optional rear seats and a comfort delete option (no A/C, no PCM, no damping material, etc. etc. etc.) but otherwise, I am pretty satisfied with this car.

Does a racing heritage make you a better or faster driver? Nope. The GT3 will prove itself sooner or later and I understand the sentiments but I don't understand the whining.

Hmm,..

Your last sentence really gave me a bit of a shock..while you are correct from a factual point of view..racing heritage does not make me faster..but its the racing heritage what a GT3 is about ! If not, whats the difference between a Panamera GTs and GT3?

The racing heritage is used by Porsche Marketing by all means..you never read Christophorus etc..? 99,99% of Gt3 buyers will never be as fast as a factory driver..but thats not the point at all..they want to have a car with racing heritage..or at least a considerable share..youre buying a "myth"..an "icon"..so saying the racing heriatge is not an argument - for a GT3..is quite shocking to me.

Maybe (hopefully) I misunderstood you wehen you talk about "sentiments" and "whining"

A good beer is better anyway.

911rox:

I would not be believing blindly in Porsche doing right by customers in this day and age wen VW whom own and control them have big loans to pay and money to make...

What does VW have to do with it? Porsche's biggest blunders occurred when they were still independent, from the failing chain tensioners of the 70s to the infamous intermediate shaft of the 996/997.1 era.

I trust VW quality and their products, from Skoda to Porsche. If anything VW is adding to Porsche a lot already.

"Form follows function"

911rox:

RC:

2. I doubt that Porsche would be dumb enough to put their reputation on the line for some easy cost saving.

Ummmm, they already have with us 997.2 owners. The gave us CLs preaching the motorsport theme, AP told us how they were lighter and would be faster to change and now that they have been proven wrong and wheels are flying all over youtube, their solution to protect their bottom line is that they'll pass the cost of replacement onto customers every 7000kms. Obviously the latest wheel fixing technology was not better then the former. And they obviously don't care enough about their reputation to right their wrong and keep their customers safe.

And you're sure this won't be the case with the new motor, pdk, rear steering or CLs for that matter? Really?

I would not be believing blindly in Porsche doing right by customers in this day and age wen VW whom own and control them have big loans to pay and money to make...

The CL issues have been (re)solved, not sure why you mention it again. Porsche STREET CARS are not for racing and it isn't Porsche faults that some people apparently use modded street cars for racing. There is a difference between track fun and racing. Actually racing is not permitted according to Porsche's warranty regulations.

In my opinion, Porsche keeps customers safe but of course we could discuss this all day long. My experience with them has been pretty good so far.

As to VW's ownership, you are wrong. I don't understand why so many people, especially outside Germany, view VW's involvement with Porsche with so much discomfort?  VW is actually a quality brand over here, I know their reputation in other parts of the world isn't that great but people are wrong. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

911rox:

RC:

2. I doubt that Porsche would be dumb enough to put their reputation on the line for some easy cost saving.

Ummmm, they already have with us 997.2 owners. They gave us CLs preaching the motorsport theme, AP told us how they were lighter and would be faster to change and now that they have been proven wrong and wheels are flying all over youtube, their solution to protect their bottom line is that they'll pass the cost of replacement onto customers every 7000kms. Obviously the latest wheel fixing technology was not better then the former. And they obviously don't care enough about their reputation to right their wrong and keep their customers safe.

And you're sure this won't be the case with the new motor, pdk, rear steering or CLs for that matter? Really?

I would not be believing blindly in Porsche doing right by customers in this day and age wen VW whom own and control them have big loans to pay and money to make...

I will never buy another CL fitted Porsche again... I'd suggest any new owner of a 991GT3 has their dealer clearly define any CL maintenance schedule associated with track use... Be prepared for a shock with the pricing 

"wheels are flying all over youtube" that was a good one..

But in the end, its quite serious/sad..the CL issue is a disgrace for Porsche..however, that does not mean they didnt corrected it on the 991. Porsche paid already enough money for the 2 recalls..so I suspect for 991 GT3 it will be much less of an issue..but they might have other ones.

However, I fully agree, the marketing hype about the CLs..and the words form AP on them..this should not happen again.

RC:

911rox:

RC:

2. I doubt that Porsche would be dumb enough to put their reputation on the line for some easy cost saving.

Ummmm, they already have with us 997.2 owners. The gave us CLs preaching the motorsport theme, AP told us how they were lighter and would be faster to change and now that they have been proven wrong and wheels are flying all over youtube, their solution to protect their bottom line is that they'll pass the cost of replacement onto customers every 7000kms. Obviously the latest wheel fixing technology was not better then the former. And they obviously don't care enough about their reputation to right their wrong and keep their customers safe.

And you're sure this won't be the case with the new motor, pdk, rear steering or CLs for that matter? Really?

I would not be believing blindly in Porsche doing right by customers in this day and age wen VW whom own and control them have big loans to pay and money to make...

The CL issues have been (re)solved, not sure why you mention it again. Porsche STREET CARS are not for racing and it isn't Porsche faults that some people apparently use modded street cars for racing. There is a difference between track fun and racing. Actually racing is not permitted according to Porsche's warranty regulations.

In my opinion, Porsche keeps customers safe but of course we could discuss this all day long. My experience with them has been pretty good so far.

As to VW's ownership, you are wrong. I don't understand why so many people, especially outside Germany, view VW's involvement with Porsche with so much discomfort?  VW is actually a quality brand over here, I know their reputation in other parts of the world isn't that great but people are wrong. 

have you heard of Porsche Sports Cup? This is a racing series - oficially done by Porsche - and this is not people "modding street cars"..in fact the contrary is true. Porsches must remain original in order to participate. All GT3s there had already their CL replaced..

Quality of VW is good.no doubt about that..but they should have stayed out of Porsche..Fiat also owns Ferrari..but they leave them completely alone..

GTlover:

RC:

GTlover:

I thought the new engine is completely new except a few bolts...? You list everything..I dislike..but you write - you dont understand us..? Why?

Two reasons I don't understand the complaints:

1. Nobody has actually tested the car yet

2. I doubt that Porsche would be dumb enough to put their reputation on the line for some easy cost saving

The GT3 has always been and will always be an emotional product. Most GT3 customers base their buying decision on emotions, less on brains. The GT3 is actually a pretty useless car if you don't track it. No rear seats, loud, uncomfortable (compared to 991 Carrera with PASM) and I bet that the PDK shifts won't be as comfortable too. 

Porsche is aware of this and Preuninger put his name and his good reputation on the line here, so i wouldn't worry. The only thing which worries me is that there could be initial issues (new PDK, new engine, new rear wheel steering, etc.) during the first 12 months but I have no doubt that the GT3 as a whole, will be a very satisfying product. I just wish Porsche would have added optional rear seats and a comfort delete option (no A/C, no PCM, no damping material, etc. etc. etc.) but otherwise, I am pretty satisfied with this car.

Does a racing heritage make you a better or faster driver? Nope. The GT3 will prove itself sooner or later and I understand the sentiments but I don't understand the whining.

Hmm,..

Your last sentence really gave me a bit of a shock..while you are correct from a factual point of view..racing heritage does not make me faster..but its the racing heritage what a GT3 is about ! If not, whats the difference between a Panamera GTs and GT3?

The racing heritage is used by Porsche Marketing by all means..you never read Christophorus etc..? 99,99% of Gt3 buyers will never be as fast as a factory driver..but thats not the point at all..they want to have a car with racing heritage..or at least a considerable share..youre buying a "myth"..an "icon"..so saying the racing heriatge is not an argument - for a GT3..is quite shocking to me.

Maybe (hopefully) I misunderstood you wehen you talk about "sentiments" and "whining"

A good beer is better anyway.

I kinda agree with RC in his last sentence. The progress moves on, and there is nothing to do with that. The new GT3 is a great car after all, no doubt, and it will prove itself 100%. Yes, I will miss manual box, Metzger engine (maybe not) etc. , but in case someone likes to drive a racing heritage he should look for a Singer.

"I understand the sentiments but I don't understand the whining."  +1

I dont get it - why cant the GT3 have an option for 4 seats, BOSE, no wing or any other option that can be found on other 991 models?  Why does offering these as an option damage or dilute the GT3 in anyway as long as the base car is setup to be the ultimate drivers feedback track/road hybrid?

At the end of the day these should be just options - if you want to spec you car with clubsport and no luxuries with an extreem bias for track then good on you, thats all good. But if another person wants to spec his with 4 seats, BOSE and no wing then what harm does it do to those who dont want that setup?

Used buyers can then just buy the one thats setup for their preference...  I fail to see why options damage the purity of GT3 as long as the basics of the car are "right".

reginos:

911rox:

I would not be believing blindly in Porsche doing right by customers in this day and age wen VW whom own and control them have big loans to pay and money to make...

What does VW have to do with it? Porsche's biggest blunders occurred when they were still independent, from the failing chain tensioners of the 70s to the infamous intermediate shaft of the 996/997.1 era.

I trust VW quality and their products, from Skoda to Porsche. If anything VW is adding to Porsche a lot already.

911 were miles ahead in the seventies in reliability compared to their competition of that time (read Ferraris, Maserati etc). Remember race on Sunday sell on Monday?

911 Club Coupe, 993 4S Riviera Blau, 12' Audi S4 Avant

Adam2S:

I dont get it - why cant the GT3 have an option for 4 seats, BOSE, no wing or any other option that can be found on other 991 models?  Why does offering these as an option damage or dilute the GT3 in anyway as long as the base car is setup to be the ultimate drivers feedback track/road hybrid?

At the end of the day these should be just options - if you want to spec you car with clubsport and no luxuries with an extreem bias for track then good on you, thats all good. But if another person wants to spec his with 4 seats, BOSE and no wing then what harm does it do to those who dont want that setup?

Used buyers can then just buy the one thats setup for their preference...  I fail to see why options damage the purity of GT3 as long as the basics of the car are "right".

Because it would "insult" die hard hardcore GT3 lovers and potential buyers?  I know this sounds weird (I don't get it either) but some people are all about emotions and things being special, especially when they spend a lot of money. It is impossible to get this out of people's heads, so Porsche needs to be very careful how they position a certain product in the market. Of course I love special things too but sometimes having more options can be special too.

For me, it is always about options but for others, it seems to be more. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

m4ever:

911 were miles ahead in the seventies in reliability compared to their competition of that time (read Ferraris, Maserati etc). Remember race on Sunday sell on Monday?

According to German TÜV findings, they still are, especially cars which are older than one year.

Actually, reliability shouldn't be an issue anymore nowadays. The reason is simple: Most manufacturers get the parts from the same suppliers.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

911rox:

RC:

2. I doubt that Porsche would be dumb enough to put their reputation on the line for some easy cost saving.

Ummmm, they already have with us 997.2 owners. The gave us CLs preaching the motorsport theme, AP told us how they were lighter and would be faster to change and now that they have been proven wrong and wheels are flying all over youtube, their solution to protect their bottom line is that they'll pass the cost of replacement onto customers every 7000kms. Obviously the latest wheel fixing technology was not better then the former. And they obviously don't care enough about their reputation to right their wrong and keep their customers safe.

And you're sure this won't be the case with the new motor, pdk, rear steering or CLs for that matter? Really?

I would not be believing blindly in Porsche doing right by customers in this day and age wen VW whom own and control them have big loans to pay and money to make...

The CL issues have been (re)solved, not sure why you mention it again. Porsche STREET CARS are not for racing and it isn't Porsche faults that some people apparently use modded street cars for racing. There is a difference between track fun and racing. Actually racing is not permitted according to Porsche's warranty regulations.

In my opinion, Porsche keeps customers safe but of course we could discuss this all day long. My experience with them has been pretty good so far.

As to VW's ownership, you are wrong. I don't understand why so many people, especially outside Germany, view VW's involvement with Porsche with so much discomfort?  VW is actually a quality brand over here, I know their reputation in other parts of the world isn't that great but people are wrong. 

RC, the Porsche marketing machine has led you to believe that the issue is resolved. You obviously don't own a CL car. You certainly don't know the facts... So I will school all you guys looking to buy a CL car so you can't say you didn't know.

Firstly, the Porsche marketing and propaganda:

-CL are motorsport derived

- they are lighter than the traditional 5 lug system

- they allow for faster wheel changes

- all CL issues were resolved after Porsche replaced a few hundred suspect sets on early GT3s

These were all claims made by AP in his 2010 GT3 launch, marketing or facts?

The FACTS:

- CLs are motorsport derived yes but the particular system they've adopted for street cars can't even withstand track use.

-they are in fact heavier than the 5 lug system and in fact the wheels require extra strengthening and are therefore heavier too

- wheel changes require a PhD in wheel changing, advanced disassembly, greasing and re-assembly to have a chance of getting to the required torque correctly. They are not faster to swap and can't be fitted with pneumatic tools.

Furthermore:

- all previous GT cars and even all other Porsches with 5 lug systems do NOT have a maintenance schedule for their hubs. All centrelock cars now do as of THREE MONTHS ago...

- Porsche conceded after 3 long years that there is an issue although they will not admit it. The early GT3 were fitted with a weaker hub and were recalled to have the latest part fitted.

- Three years ago when these cars were released to market, they were required to be torqued to 500Nm. 6 months later it was identified they were coming loose at the track and this was increased to 600Nm. Damaged components were replaced/

- Three years on and after more than a dozen cars have lost a left rear wheel, they final recall to put "the stronger RS" hubs on these cars. Most of these cars were in the hands of regular guys like all of us, not modified street racing cars as you put it...

- At that point it is decided that these "strong hubs" are now only good for 7000 track kms rather than than for life as per the previous system. Rather than redesign and recall ALL cars to fit a new hub that doesn't fail, Porsche have passed the buck onto customers stating that they must replace hubs per a newly set schedule or expect possible wheel losses.

- Customers are now expected to pay between US$4000 and $10000 every 7000 track kms (or 40-50hr use) to replace hubs, bolts, bearings and uprights or risk a wheel loss resulting in a totalled vehicle or loss of life. A cup car doesn't even have this stringent a schedule and it is being raced, abused and having wheels zapped on and off with rattle guns!!! Does this sound like a resolved CL issue to you? Does this sound like a company standing behind newly adopted technology? Does this sound like an acceptable solution to a problem Porsche created and 3 years on, customers are expected to foot the bill? If the new wheel fixing system wasn't better than the old system in EVERY way, it shouldn't be standard fitment on the most tracked cars in their range, FULL STOP.

- A responsible company would redesign the hubs out of stronger material and thicken them up and then recall all vehicles to update and resolve a life threatening issue. Instead there are about 5000 ticking time bombs circling streets and tracks. Best to do your homework if you plan on buying a CL equiped car that you hope to visit the track with... And you guys want to put faith in Porsche to deliver and stand by a car with a new engine, pdk, CLs and rear steering? Best of luck! Consider yourselves now informed about the facts with the ONGOING CL saga....

Christian,

This is the strange world, isn't it Why

Because we have here two poles, no more, no less...

Very interesting thing is that both poles are actually - sides(or negative):

1. Group-die hard manual, Mezger fans

  -they complain that new GT3 is poser car, no more manual, no more Mezger, new GT3 is a softy(what a stupid remark indeed, nobody drove new GT3 yet-but it is a softy??) etc.

2. Group-those who actually wanted 475ps new GT3 engine in 991 Carrera(something like Carrera RS maybe)

 -they wanted 4 seater, no spoilers at all, deleted rear GT3 badge, Burmester sound system(for God sake why? I am huge audiophile-own new Magico speakers, BUT good soundsystem is for home-NOT for true sportscar a la GT3. IMHO.), etc.

See the problem

I think that new GT3 is awsome sportscar. To repeat again AWSOME. For the first time I am thinking very hard indeed about buying new GT3. So, Porsche did great job, at least IMO. New 991 Turbo will be awsome as well. As fast on the Ring as new GT3(both below 7.30min and do not be supriesed at all IF HvS achieve below 7.30min in new GT3) and with all goodies.

New GT3 is a true GT3 in its core. Some still have doubts? Well, time will tell that I was right from the start.

Again, you are not supposed to track race your street car. A Cup car costs more and it is not street legal from the factory, very dumb comparison if I may say so. I agree, Porsche messed up but they fixed it in my opinion. Your opinion seems to be that Porsche needs to make their street legal cars track racing proof but this is why they build real race cars.

I understand what you are trying to say but I also disagree. Even the GT3 is no race car, it is a street car with race genes, big difference. For more than the casual club racing / driving ed event, you need a professional race car or at least you need a modded GT3. This is when the Porsche warranty stops. Period.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Adam2S:

I dont get it - why cant the GT3 have an option for 4 seats, BOSE, no wing or any other option that can be found on other 991 models?  Why does offering these as an option damage or dilute the GT3 in anyway as long as the base car is setup to be the ultimate drivers feedback track/road hybrid?

At the end of the day these should be just options - if you want to spec you car with clubsport and no luxuries with an extreem bias for track then good on you, thats all good. But if another person wants to spec his with 4 seats, BOSE and no wing then what harm does it do to those who dont want that setup?

Used buyers can then just buy the one thats setup for their preference...  I fail to see why options damage the purity of GT3 as long as the basics of the car are "right".

Your car already exists champ! Its called a Carrera S. It offers everything you require and if you like, for a small fee, I'm sure they'll even stick a GT3 badge on the back... Why rape a track focused GT3 to create a boulevard cruiser? Think about it...

Its like saying I want an Aventador but would prefer Galardo doors on it as I don't like scissor type doors on it... wtf?