Crown

Dear Rennteamers,

Does anyone know of any data concerning the 991 Turbo's ground clearance?

Due to the "active" front lip, it seems to me it should have greater ground clearance than the 997 Turbo judging from the first pics. Can anyone confirm this?

It would be interesting to see how the 991 Turbo compares with a 991 Carrera S in terms of ground clearance.

Thank you in advance.

As far as I know the ground clearance is similar to the 991 Carrera S, it is not higher!!!

Caution: If you drive in Sport Plus mode, I suppose most of the drivers will (I do), the front lip is completely out. So if you currently have issues with ground clearance on a 991 Carrera S, the new Turbo won't improve your situation at all. On the contrary, the lip (in Sport Plus mode) will actually be closer to the street than you might want it to.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Christian,
Will the lip be fully extended in Sport Plus mode, even at low speeds?
 

RC- Thank you for your kind reply.

I had no illusions that the Turbo would have better ground clearance than a Carrera S. I am just curious as to how much worse it is. The lip being extended in sport plus mode would be a non-issue...as it would be sufficient to deactivate sport plus when engaged in maneuvers dangerous for the front lip.

For reference, I had a 997.1 4S for a few years. Loved the car (drove it 150,000km) and had no major problems with ground clearance. I then got a 997 Turbo which I had for a few months (and liked a lot) but scratched the front lip all the time.

For the past 4 years I have also had a Ferrari 599 (which I drove for over 60,000km in these years and loved every one of them), which has more than reasonable ground clearance.

However, I miss the 911 experience (for many reasons) and now wish to add a 991 next to the 599 to share some of the driving duties. This would offer the best of both worlds to me.  I am, however, torn between the Carrera S and the Turbo S. Very different cars, I know. Leaving the obvious price difference aside, what leaves me undecided is:

1) The Turbo's extra width: Compared to the 599 it is still a small car (size is one thing that truly bothers me about the 599). However, the Carrera is 8cm narrower...and I find that very appealing.

2) Ground clearance: When taking ferries, going in underground garages etc...this can be a concern. The 997 Turbo had too little ground clearance as I scratched the rubber front lip almost daily. That truly annoyed me.

3) I think that the Turbo S looks stunning...but having an already very flashy 599, I find the more subtle looks of the Carrera S very appealing.

4) Performance. The 991 Turbo will surely be a monster and with AWD it will be very exploitable. However, the 599 has already more than enough power to scare me silly...so maybe sheer performance is not what I'm looking for? But then again, power can be addictive.

5) Exhaust note: For me this is very important. I loved the 997.1 Carrera 4S PSE exhaust note. 991 PSE sounds even better. I did not enjoy the exhaust note of 997.1 Turbo I had so much. I am really curious to see if the 991 Turbo improves on that. However, already having a 599, perhaps the exhaust note isn’t the main issue here. Not sure…

…and, of course, there is the obvious price difference. About 70K Euros with my desired specs for both cars.

Sorry for the ramble, but being a forum of “car people”, I am sure many will understand the gravity of such decisions!

Joost:

Christian,
Will the lip be fully extended in Sport Plus mode, even at low speeds?
 

I'm not sure but judging by the functionality description, I tend to think so.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Joost:

Christian,
Will the lip be fully extended in Sport Plus mode, even at low speeds?
 

I understand it is speed related at 3 positions. Retracted-Extended-Fully extended.

The lip is extended by air inflation (like a bicycle tube). I wonder whether, since it is more flexible than hard plastic,  it could take some punishment when touching obstacles?

"Form follows function"

FlatSix911:

RC- Thank you for your kind reply.

I had no illusions that the Turbo would have better ground clearance than a Carrera S. I am just curious as to how much worse it is. The lip being extended in sport plus mode would be a non-issue...as it would be sufficient to deactivate sport plus when engaged in maneuvers dangerous for the front lip.

For reference, I had a 997.1 4S for a few years. Loved the car (drove it 150,000km) and had no major problems with ground clearance. I then got a 997 Turbo which I had for a few months (and liked a lot) but scratched the front lip all the time.

For the past 4 years I have also had a Ferrari 599 (which I drove for over 60,000km in these years and loved every one of them), which has more than reasonable ground clearance.

However, I miss the 911 experience (for many reasons) and now wish to add a 991 next to the 599 to share some of the driving duties. This would offer the best of both worlds to me.  I am, however, torn between the Carrera S and the Turbo S. Very different cars, I know. Leaving the obvious price difference aside, what leaves me undecided is:

1) The Turbo's extra width: Compared to the 599 it is still a small car (size is one thing that truly bothers me about the 599). However, the Carrera is 8cm narrower...and I find that very appealing.

2) Ground clearance: When taking ferries, going in underground garages etc...this can be a concern. The 997 Turbo had too little ground clearance as I scratched the rubber front lip almost daily. That truly annoyed me.

3) I think that the Turbo S looks stunning...but having an already very flashy 599, I find the more subtle looks of the Carrera S very appealing.

4) Performance. The 991 Turbo will surely be a monster and with AWD it will be very exploitable. However, the 599 has already more than enough power to scare me silly...so maybe sheer performance is not what I'm looking for? But then again, power can be addictive.

5) Exhaust note: For me this is very important. I loved the 997.1 Carrera 4S PSE exhaust note. 991 PSE sounds even better. I did not enjoy the exhaust note of 997.1 Turbo I had so much. I am really curious to see if the 991 Turbo improves on that. However, already having a 599, perhaps the exhaust note isn’t the main issue here. Not sure…

…and, of course, there is the obvious price difference. About 70K Euros with my desired specs for both cars.

Sorry for the ramble, but being a forum of “car people”, I am sure many will understand the gravity of such decisions!

 

 

Hi there.

If you plan to drive your car mostly around Monaco, the 991 Carrera S could be the better choice as a daily driver. If money isn't really an issue though, the 991 Turbo S should be a blast. I don't think that the additional width in the rear would be a real issue as a daily driver and the additional power, the AWD and especially the amazing AKC (all wheel steering) surely make up for the slightly higher weight.

The exhaust/engine sound is important for me too and this is while I always hated the 997 Turbo exhaust sound. Had a Cargraphic exhaust installed and it really improved things a lot but this exhaust was kind of overkill for city driving, very loud and it attracted too much attention, more than I wanted.

The new 991 Turbo S has a sound symposer (similar to the Cayenne/Panamera GTS) and while I do not expect wonders from it, I truly think that this time, Porsche listened to customer complaints and improved the exhaust/engine sound. I may learn more about the sound in five weeks or so, when I travel to the factory but so far, I have no doubt that the sound has been improved. Otherwise Porsche will get a lot of crap from future customers.

The 599 (not GTO I suppose?) is a fine Ferrari but I think that performance-wise, the 991 Turbo S is already playing in a different league, even if the raw performance data may not be that different. Also, the 991 Turbo S kind of has a novelty factor for at least 12 months or so, until more cars make it to the streets. This may not be really important but as somebody living in Monaco, I think you'll appreciate it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC- Hi and thank you again for your interesting thoughts.

I did not know that the new Turbo also had the symposer. Interesting. If well executed, it would certainly add a layer of excitement to an already very exciting car.

I don't really drive much inside Monaco. It is a small place and I prefer to walk. However, parking lots can be tight...especially the one where I live (getting the 599 in the garage is nightmare). I drive mostly in France,  Italy and around Europe.

I also don't give much importance to the "novelty factor" as, unlike many who live here, I buy cars for my own enjoyment and not to impress others.

The 599 I have is a "normal" GTB. I have no doubt that in the real world on most roads the Turbo S is faster. Nevertheless, the 599 is a car I grew very fond of and don't see myself getting rid of it. I am looking for a 911 to complement it, not replace it. From my experience, Ferraris and Porsche 911s have very complementary attributes.

Ferrari and Porsche offer unique value propositions and, although very different, I have always found myself very passionate about both (since a little kid). After three years without a 911, I have come to the conclusion that owning both (given the possibility) is the only way to have the best of both words.

I find the 991 Turbo S enormously appealing...but I find a "normal" Carrera S equally fascinating for different reasons. I think I'll have to wait to drive the new Turbo in order to make up my mind

I have followed a number of your car purchasing "dilemmas" over the years (I am a long-time lurker) and, therefore, I think you can understand my state of confusion

I would, however, love to know how the 991 Turbo compares with the 997.1 Turbo in terms of ground clearance....

In any case, I doubt I'd be disappointed by either car.

Why not a FF?

SciFrog:

Why not a FF?

SciFrog- Not an FF for four reasons I would say (no pun intended):

1) Too big (same problem as the 599). 911s provide a contrast to the 599 also in terms of size, which is something I appreciate very much.

2) Too flashy. I would like a car that passes a bit more "under the radar" especially for certain trips to Europe...or simply going food shopping.

3) I simply miss a 911

4)  I already have a 599 for the "Ferrari experience" (which I am very passionate about). I have considered getting a second Fcar sooner or later, but the FF (whilst a great car) does not suit my needs/desires.

I hope it makes sense; that is, assuming such matters ever make sense! :)

I understand your desire for a 991 Carrera S. At my dealer, there is an agate grey car with glass roof (black on agate grey contrast is really nice) and satin painted rims. The interior is the new special leather with agate grey color, which looks quite light and not grey at all. I almost got this car instead of the Turbo S, it just looks stunning, incl. the PASM 20mm suspension, very low and just like made from a single block. It is difficult to describe.

The Turbo S is more of a 991 Carrera S on steroids, the Arnold Schwarzenegger of the 911 world. I understand the difference and trust me, I would love to own a 991 Turbo S and a 991 Carrera S Cabriolet because of the cleaner look. I also would add the new 991 GT3 to my garage if I could afford it.

Which brings me to the next thing: Have you ever considered the new 991 GT3? If you do not need the rear seats, I can assure you that the new GT3 is an amazing car.

I understand the difference to the 599. I would love to own a F12, I can't help it but the F12 just feels right for me. Unfortunately I live in a region where a Ferrari would not be acceptable for various social reasons. I also think that the Porsche lease offers over here are much better than what Ferrari offers.

Bottom line is: I understand your dilemma. Not an easy one. I chose the 991 Turbo S because my current Panamera Turbo S has to go and I'm going to be "stuck" with a Cayenne GTS as a family car. So I want the maximum performance possible in my fun car and the 991 Turbo S is the right choice for me.

I wish you good luck with your decision, not easy, I know.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

I understand the difference to the 599. I would love to own a F12, I can't help it but the F12 just feels right for me. Unfortunately I live in a region where a Ferrari would not be acceptable for various social reasons. I also think that the Porsche lease offers over here are much better than what Ferrari offers.

Well to be fair, the f12 is a bit a dfference price league than a 991 turbo/S,

just a bit spect, the f12 is around 300k euros vs 200k euros, for a 991 turboS pretty mutch loaded from factory.

In Switzerland they start around 350k sfr without specs, vs the 991 turbos is around 270k sfr (minus around 6% and euro exchange), so easily a 100k between..

So obvious leasing offers must be different

i did it finaly   YES turbo s 

rhodium silver 

red/black interior 

october if im lucky or med november 

Dont purchase 2013 year cars! Season will end! Ots much more economically rfficient to buy 2014 year cars!

artur777:

Dont purchase 2013 year cars! Season will end! Ots much more economically rfficient to buy 2014 year cars!

If you are referring to sulaiman's post, his car (to be delivered in October or November) would be MY 2014 anyway?  

fritz

there is no tt or tts for 2013 anyway its all 2014 :)

Dario:

just a bit spect, the f12 is around 300k euros vs 200k euros, for a 991 turboS pretty mutch loaded from factory.

In Switzerland they start around 350k sfr without specs, vs the 991 turbos is around 270k sfr (minus around 6% and euro exchange), so easily a 100k between..

So obvious leasing offers must be different

I had an offer for a car with some options for 230k EUR, new. In Germany, Ferrari prices are not as high as in some other countries. My 991 Turbo S costs 203k, so in this price segment, I doubt that 27k would really make a difference. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

FlatSix911, seeing that you own a 599 i doubt the Standard carrera s will cut it for you.

after my 996 Turbo i went for the 997 carrera s when it was first introduced.....i certainly missed the power. i was happy with the car as it was a new Generation and was better in many ways than the 996....but i always wanted more power...which made me go for the 997 Turbo and gt2 as soon as they came out.

i would certainly think you would want to go for the 991 Turbo/s

intouch1:

FlatSix911, seeing that you own a 599 i doubt the Standard carrera s will cut it for you.

after my 996 Turbo i went for the 997 carrera s when it was first introduced.....i certainly missed the power. i was happy with the car as it was a new Generation and was better in many ways than the 996....but i always wanted more power...which made me go for the 997 Turbo and gt2 as soon as they came out.

i would certainly think you would want to go for the 991 Turbo/s

I understand the appeal of the standard 991 Carrera S quite well. The car, depending on exterior color and rim choice, looks very clean and "compact", it is difficult to describe but it has a huge appeal to me. I would get one in an instant if there would be AWD and the 560 hp engine available for the Carrera S , not a big fan of the rear wing or the wider rear (not that it really bothers me but I could live without the visual differences).

Btw: I saw this 991 Carrera S Cab at my dealer and while I'm not a big fan of red, this exterior color really looks special, like some sort of matte dark red with a metallic tone. Very special color. I wouldn't order it for the Turbo but it fits this 991 Cab pretty well, a lot of people were looking at the car and saying the same.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

intouch1:

FlatSix911, seeing that you own a 599 i doubt the Standard carrera s will cut it for you.

after my 996 Turbo i went for the 997 carrera s when it was first introduced.....i certainly missed the power. i was happy with the car as it was a new Generation and was better in many ways than the 996....but i always wanted more power...which made me go for the 997 Turbo and gt2 as soon as they came out.

i would certainly think you would want to go for the 991 Turbo/s

Hi intouch1- Thank you for your input.

I would agree with you if I were trying to replace the 599 with a 911...but I'm not. The fact that the 991 Carrera S is slower than the 599 does not bother me. On the contrary, sometimes driving a slow car fast is more fun than driving a faster car slowly.

I drove the 991 Carrera S and enjoyed it a lot. The car felt more than fast enough for the real world, and the compact dimensions encouraged one to exploit the power/chassis etc. Not to mention that the PSE sounded wonderful.

With the 599, the roads often feel too small and the speed limits too low. Don't get me wrong; it's a fantastic car to drive, and after 60K km in 4 years (more than most 599 owners will ever do sadly), it still feels as exciting to drive as in day one.

Therefore, ultimate power is not necessarily what I'm looking for from the 911; but rather a contrast to the 599 and the overall "Ferrari experience".  Truth is that I miss the "911 experience".

All this being said, I plan on test driving the 991 Turbo before committing to either as both a "simple" Carrera and the Turbo appeal in different ways. For me two deciding factors will be the 991 Turbo's ground clearance and the exhaust note.

Since you already own a 599 (superfast and classic front engined Ferrari) , get the Carrera S (2WD) Coupe and if you wish get the X51 Powerkit for more top end surge. This is the archetypical 911 and in daily life you won't need anything more, unless you drive up and down unlimited Autobahnen, for most of your time.  Moreover, it is the best looking 911 variant and a lot less expensive.

As to the sound, inside the Turbo what you hear is the induction noise (not exhaust) through the symposer. In that case the exhaust sound is not very relevant to the occupants.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Since you already own a 599 (superfast and classic front engined Ferrari) , get the Carrera S (2WD) Coupe and if you wish get the X51 Powerkit for more top end surge. This is the archetypical 911 and in daily life you won't need anything more, unless you drive up and down unlimited Autobahnen, for most of your time.  Moreover, it is the best looking 911 variant and a lot less expensive.

As to the sound, inside the Turbo what you hear is the induction noise (not exhaust) through the symposer. In that case the exhaust sound is not very relevant to the occupants.

Judging by the sound symposer in my Cayenne GTS, I think that many people kind of misunderstand the concept of Porsche's approach: The sound symposer is only supposed to somehow conduct the exterior sound to the interior, so the isolation of the car (windows, dampening materials, etc.) doesn't isolate the sound too much. The sound is not created artificially, like on the new M5 for example.

It is my understanding that the new 991 Turbo/Turbo S will sound better than all their previous tiers, Porsche apparently listened to customer complaints. The sound symposer is only the icing on the cake by improving the sound in the interior too. I just hope this is true and not just another rumor. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

intouch1:

FlatSix911, seeing that you own a 599 i doubt the Standard carrera s will cut it for you.

after my 996 Turbo i went for the 997 carrera s when it was first introduced.....i certainly missed the power. i was happy with the car as it was a new Generation and was better in many ways than the 996....but i always wanted more power...which made me go for the 997 Turbo and gt2 as soon as they came out.

i would certainly think you would want to go for the 991 Turbo/s

I understand the appeal of the standard 991 Carrera S quite well. The car, depending on exterior color and rim choice, looks very clean and "compact", it is difficult to describe but it has a huge appeal to me. I would get one in an instant if there would be AWD and the 560 hp engine available for the Carrera S , not a big fan of the rear wing or the wider rear (not that it really bothers me but I could live without the visual differences).

Btw: I saw this 991 Carrera S Cab at my dealer and while I'm not a big fan of red, this exterior color really looks special, like some sort of matte dark red with a metallic tone. Very special color. I wouldn't order it for the Turbo but it fits this 991 Cab pretty well, a lot of people were looking at the car and saying the same.

Look good indeed...I like that the windshield frame stayed black. Perhaps next 911 Cab for my wife will look like that

Correct, but given the position of the symposer duct, I think that what comes inside mostly is induction noise rather than exhaust.

On the Carrera the sound through the symposer is very audible and pleasant if you are in the mood, but I wish there was a separate control to switch it on/off at will.

"Form follows function"

SportCarGroup:

RC:

intouch1:

FlatSix911, seeing that you own a 599 i doubt the Standard carrera s will cut it for you.

after my 996 Turbo i went for the 997 carrera s when it was first introduced.....i certainly missed the power. i was happy with the car as it was a new Generation and was better in many ways than the 996....but i always wanted more power...which made me go for the 997 Turbo and gt2 as soon as they came out.

i would certainly think you would want to go for the 991 Turbo/s

I understand the appeal of the standard 991 Carrera S quite well. The car, depending on exterior color and rim choice, looks very clean and "compact", it is difficult to describe but it has a huge appeal to me. I would get one in an instant if there would be AWD and the 560 hp engine available for the Carrera S , not a big fan of the rear wing or the wider rear (not that it really bothers me but I could live without the visual differences).

Btw: I saw this 991 Carrera S Cab at my dealer and while I'm not a big fan of red, this exterior color really looks special, like some sort of matte dark red with a metallic tone. Very special color. I wouldn't order it for the Turbo but it fits this 991 Cab pretty well, a lot of people were looking at the car and saying the same.

Look good indeed...I like that the windshield frame stayed black. Perhaps next 911 Cab for my wife will look like that

If Porsche would offer a black or grey in this matte (BMW calls it "frozen") look, I would order it immediately.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Dario:

just a bit spect, the f12 is around 300k euros vs 200k euros, for a 991 turboS pretty mutch loaded from factory.

In Switzerland they start around 350k sfr without specs, vs the 991 turbos is around 270k sfr (minus around 6% and euro exchange), so easily a 100k between..

So obvious leasing offers must be different

I had an offer for a car with some options for 230k EUR, new. In Germany, Ferrari prices are not as high as in some other countries. My 991 Turbo S costs 203k, so in this price segment, I doubt that 27k would really make a difference. 

Could you please PM me your Ferrari source, as i am about to sign a contract for the F12 with a mutch higher price level. 230 k would be a bargain to import

Dario:

RC:

Dario:

just a bit spect, the f12 is around 300k euros vs 200k euros, for a 991 turboS pretty mutch loaded from factory.

In Switzerland they start around 350k sfr without specs, vs the 991 turbos is around 270k sfr (minus around 6% and euro exchange), so easily a 100k between..

So obvious leasing offers must be different

I had an offer for a car with some options for 230k EUR, new. In Germany, Ferrari prices are not as high as in some other countries. My 991 Turbo S costs 203k, so in this price segment, I doubt that 27k would really make a difference. 

Could you please PM me your Ferrari source, as i am about to sign a contract for the F12 with a mutch higher price level. 230 k would be a bargain to import

It is a great price for an F12! Just curious though - if you wanted a PM answer why not a PM question?  Now we all want to know!!  BTW - all this talk of expensive Turbos is making me love my 'old' mezger manual more and more.  I drive it everyday and all the time!  Can't get over the speed but I can tell I will want more.  It is 100% within my skill level given my decades of 911 driving and the stock suspension (!) which is fun but a bit clumsy.  It really rocks and rolls in my hands. Have the boost timing coming out of turns down!  No tickets yet, thank god.

Dario:

Could you please PM me your Ferrari source, as i am about to sign a contract for the F12 with a mutch higher price level. 230 k would be a bargain to import

Car had a new price tag of 275k (don't remember the precise number anymore but it started with 27) EUR, immediate delivery cash deal 230k EUR. Color was bianco something (white), interior black with brown (nero something). The car was in dealer stock, it was a take it or leave it deal, brokered by my bank guy (don't laugh). This was a couple of months ago. This was not a car for order! New price tag in Germany for standard car (no options) is 265 or 268k EUR, don't remember precisely. This includes 19% VAT.

I just couldn't justify paying 230k for a Ferrari which I am probably not going to be able to drive at all in my neighborhood and there was no lease deal, just cash. My bank guy suggested buying the car and re-selling it if I don't like it but I'm no car sales person, I have a different job.  It was very tempting I have to admit and the biggest mistake was to go see the car, sit in it...well...I loved it. Maybe I'm going to regret this opportunity but this is how life works. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)