Crown

Whoopsy:

CGX car nut:

Curious why you consider EVs nothing more than commoditized transportation especially since global regulations are forcing automakers to transition toward BEVs and FCVs to meet incredibly low carbon emission standards.  Volkswagen Group, for example, is afoul of the current fleet CO2 limits for the EU, like much of the industry.  Few automakers beyond Tesla and Toyota in the EU are meeting those new limits.  As a result, the Porsche Taycan, and to lesser extent, the Audi e-tron, Mercedes Benz EQ, and Volkswagen ID 3, are ushering the new era away from ICEs to BEVs.  

Volkswagen Group's approach to using Porsche as the trailblazer is the correct approach when EV component costs, basically the battery pack, are much more costly than the corresponding ICE components.  This will, of course, change with scale; however, for the near term, BEVs will remain correspondingly more expensive than the comparable ICE vehicle.  That cost disadvantage is partially concealed by Porsche positioning the Taycan in size, and by performance, in a class below the Panamera.  Additionally, Porsche needed to make its first fully electric car a sedan because of the size of the battery pack, for the desired range and performance, dictates a footprint larger than that of a two door sports coupé.  

When most drivers experience an EV, the transition based solely on drive characteristics will rapidly occur.  EVs simply are that much better, less the noise, than an internal combustion engine.  This is the appeal of Tesla.  Telsa builds a very mediocre car but the consumer is enticed by the vibration free, quiet ride followed with unrelenting acceleration.  The Taycan builds on those basic parameters with devastating effectiveness.  Based on your comments posted on RT, you are the target customer of the Taycan.  

 

You just answered your own question with the first sentence.

EV are nothing more than a commoditized transportation.

Yes a premium EV will be much nicer than a normal EV, and might have features that lesser EV doesn't have. But at the end of the day, it will just be a transportation device that get used inside cities to go from A to B and maybe C. Like my Miele fridge, it's a premium appliance, I like it very much, so much so that I have 2 of them, but there is no emotions between myself and my fridges. It stores food and drinks, that's it. I also like my Sub-Zero under counter freezers, yes I have 2 of those too, but there is also no emotional attachment. 

When they die, I will just buy another one to replaced, period. 

Very unlike my normal cars, I will never sell my 918, and my son told me not to sell the Turbo 3.6, that's because there IS emotional attachment there. My e-Tron is on a lease, there is zero attachment, when it's done it's done and I will get something else to replace it. Heck, I have more emotional attachment to my Honda pickup than the e-Tron. 

I wanted to hear explanation of why he believes EVs are commodities. There is only some much that automakers can accomplish to differentiate automobiles beyond interior and exterior design and fit and finish.  Some automakers, Porsche, for example, have the ability to alter vehicle dynamics based on weight distribution and polar inertia based on engine configuration and placement.  If a company like Porsche isn't able to inject a USP into the EV, then one agrees, the automobile is essentially dead.  However, early reviews of the Taycan suggest that this car is a devastatingly quick point-to-point car with enough quirkiness and charm to leave the thought of commodity behind.  

From everything I am seeing the Taycan is going to wipe the floor with the Model S. better looking better dash better reusable performance far better quality . Saving grace for Tesla though nay be if the Taycan helps EV start to go „mainstream“. Then it will be a case of losing market share in a growing market. Interesting times 

Wonderbar:

Going to be fun at Frankfurt press debut.  I will post pics and impressions.👍

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

CGX car nut:

Whoopsy:

CGX car nut:

Curious why you consider EVs nothing more than commoditized transportation especially since global regulations are forcing automakers to transition toward BEVs and FCVs to meet incredibly low carbon emission standards.  Volkswagen Group, for example, is afoul of the current fleet CO2 limits for the EU, like much of the industry.  Few automakers beyond Tesla and Toyota in the EU are meeting those new limits.  As a result, the Porsche Taycan, and to lesser extent, the Audi e-tron, Mercedes Benz EQ, and Volkswagen ID 3, are ushering the new era away from ICEs to BEVs.  

Volkswagen Group's approach to using Porsche as the trailblazer is the correct approach when EV component costs, basically the battery pack, are much more costly than the corresponding ICE components.  This will, of course, change with scale; however, for the near term, BEVs will remain correspondingly more expensive than the comparable ICE vehicle.  That cost disadvantage is partially concealed by Porsche positioning the Taycan in size, and by performance, in a class below the Panamera.  Additionally, Porsche needed to make its first fully electric car a sedan because of the size of the battery pack, for the desired range and performance, dictates a footprint larger than that of a two door sports coupé.  

When most drivers experience an EV, the transition based solely on drive characteristics will rapidly occur.  EVs simply are that much better, less the noise, than an internal combustion engine.  This is the appeal of Tesla.  Telsa builds a very mediocre car but the consumer is enticed by the vibration free, quiet ride followed with unrelenting acceleration.  The Taycan builds on those basic parameters with devastating effectiveness.  Based on your comments posted on RT, you are the target customer of the Taycan.  

 

You just answered your own question with the first sentence.

EV are nothing more than a commoditized transportation.

Yes a premium EV will be much nicer than a normal EV, and might have features that lesser EV doesn't have. But at the end of the day, it will just be a transportation device that get used inside cities to go from A to B and maybe C. Like my Miele fridge, it's a premium appliance, I like it very much, so much so that I have 2 of them, but there is no emotions between myself and my fridges. It stores food and drinks, that's it. I also like my Sub-Zero under counter freezers, yes I have 2 of those too, but there is also no emotional attachment. 

When they die, I will just buy another one to replaced, period. 

Very unlike my normal cars, I will never sell my 918, and my son told me not to sell the Turbo 3.6, that's because there IS emotional attachment there. My e-Tron is on a lease, there is zero attachment, when it's done it's done and I will get something else to replace it. Heck, I have more emotional attachment to my Honda pickup than the e-Tron. 

I wanted to hear explanation of why he believes EVs are commodities. There is only some much that automakers can accomplish to differentiate automobiles beyond interior and exterior design and fit and finish.  Some automakers, Porsche, for example, have the ability to alter vehicle dynamics based on weight distribution and polar inertia based on engine configuration and placement.  If a company like Porsche isn't able to inject a USP into the EV, then one agrees, the automobile is essentially dead.  However, early reviews of the Taycan suggest that this car is a devastatingly quick point-to-point car with enough quirkiness and charm to leave the thought of commodity behind.  

This is $64K question; can the auto industry make an EV have the emotional attachment that for example a manual transmission NA sports car has. Some would argue that even a PDK equipped vehicle removes this experience. Interesting times and probably more of billion dollar question, because if they cannot then they just become appliances.

AJ:

CGX car nut:

Whoopsy:

CGX car nut:

Curious why you consider EVs nothing more than commoditized transportation especially since global regulations are forcing automakers to transition toward BEVs and FCVs to meet incredibly low carbon emission standards.  Volkswagen Group, for example, is afoul of the current fleet CO2 limits for the EU, like much of the industry.  Few automakers beyond Tesla and Toyota in the EU are meeting those new limits.  As a result, the Porsche Taycan, and to lesser extent, the Audi e-tron, Mercedes Benz EQ, and Volkswagen ID 3, are ushering the new era away from ICEs to BEVs.  

Volkswagen Group's approach to using Porsche as the trailblazer is the correct approach when EV component costs, basically the battery pack, are much more costly than the corresponding ICE components.  This will, of course, change with scale; however, for the near term, BEVs will remain correspondingly more expensive than the comparable ICE vehicle.  That cost disadvantage is partially concealed by Porsche positioning the Taycan in size, and by performance, in a class below the Panamera.  Additionally, Porsche needed to make its first fully electric car a sedan because of the size of the battery pack, for the desired range and performance, dictates a footprint larger than that of a two door sports coupé.  

When most drivers experience an EV, the transition based solely on drive characteristics will rapidly occur.  EVs simply are that much better, less the noise, than an internal combustion engine.  This is the appeal of Tesla.  Telsa builds a very mediocre car but the consumer is enticed by the vibration free, quiet ride followed with unrelenting acceleration.  The Taycan builds on those basic parameters with devastating effectiveness.  Based on your comments posted on RT, you are the target customer of the Taycan.  

 

You just answered your own question with the first sentence.

EV are nothing more than a commoditized transportation.

Yes a premium EV will be much nicer than a normal EV, and might have features that lesser EV doesn't have. But at the end of the day, it will just be a transportation device that get used inside cities to go from A to B and maybe C. Like my Miele fridge, it's a premium appliance, I like it very much, so much so that I have 2 of them, but there is no emotions between myself and my fridges. It stores food and drinks, that's it. I also like my Sub-Zero under counter freezers, yes I have 2 of those too, but there is also no emotional attachment. 

When they die, I will just buy another one to replaced, period. 

Very unlike my normal cars, I will never sell my 918, and my son told me not to sell the Turbo 3.6, that's because there IS emotional attachment there. My e-Tron is on a lease, there is zero attachment, when it's done it's done and I will get something else to replace it. Heck, I have more emotional attachment to my Honda pickup than the e-Tron. 

I wanted to hear explanation of why he believes EVs are commodities. There is only some much that automakers can accomplish to differentiate automobiles beyond interior and exterior design and fit and finish.  Some automakers, Porsche, for example, have the ability to alter vehicle dynamics based on weight distribution and polar inertia based on engine configuration and placement.  If a company like Porsche isn't able to inject a USP into the EV, then one agrees, the automobile is essentially dead.  However, early reviews of the Taycan suggest that this car is a devastatingly quick point-to-point car with enough quirkiness and charm to leave the thought of commodity behind.  

This is $64K question; can the auto industry make an EV have the emotional attachment that for example a manual transmission NA sports car has. Some would argue that even a PDK equipped vehicle removes this experience. Interesting times and probably more of billion dollar question, because if they cannot then they just become appliances.

That debatable and depends on the person you ask. I think manual transmission is just a chore. I am not emotionally attached to chores. 

The PDK, with the lightning shifts and paddles, reminds me a lot of my race cars which I had enormous pleasure in driving. That's my emotional attachment.

I get more pleasure in nailing a on the edge 1.5g+ corner with the rear threatening to come around the whole time than nailing a 5-4-3-2 heel and toe down shift.

The future of Porsche racing:

https://presse.porsche.de/prod/presse_pag/PressResources.nsf/Content?ReadForm&languageversionid=1017764&view=1

AJ:

CGX car nut:

Whoopsy:

CGX car nut:

Curious why you consider EVs nothing more than commoditized transportation especially since global regulations are forcing automakers to transition toward BEVs and FCVs to meet incredibly low carbon emission standards.  Volkswagen Group, for example, is afoul of the current fleet CO2 limits for the EU, like much of the industry.  Few automakers beyond Tesla and Toyota in the EU are meeting those new limits.  As a result, the Porsche Taycan, and to lesser extent, the Audi e-tron, Mercedes Benz EQ, and Volkswagen ID 3, are ushering the new era away from ICEs to BEVs.  

Volkswagen Group's approach to using Porsche as the trailblazer is the correct approach when EV component costs, basically the battery pack, are much more costly than the corresponding ICE components.  This will, of course, change with scale; however, for the near term, BEVs will remain correspondingly more expensive than the comparable ICE vehicle.  That cost disadvantage is partially concealed by Porsche positioning the Taycan in size, and by performance, in a class below the Panamera.  Additionally, Porsche needed to make its first fully electric car a sedan because of the size of the battery pack, for the desired range and performance, dictates a footprint larger than that of a two door sports coupé.  

When most drivers experience an EV, the transition based solely on drive characteristics will rapidly occur.  EVs simply are that much better, less the noise, than an internal combustion engine.  This is the appeal of Tesla.  Telsa builds a very mediocre car but the consumer is enticed by the vibration free, quiet ride followed with unrelenting acceleration.  The Taycan builds on those basic parameters with devastating effectiveness.  Based on your comments posted on RT, you are the target customer of the Taycan.  

 

You just answered your own question with the first sentence.

EV are nothing more than a commoditized transportation.

Yes a premium EV will be much nicer than a normal EV, and might have features that lesser EV doesn't have. But at the end of the day, it will just be a transportation device that get used inside cities to go from A to B and maybe C. Like my Miele fridge, it's a premium appliance, I like it very much, so much so that I have 2 of them, but there is no emotions between myself and my fridges. It stores food and drinks, that's it. I also like my Sub-Zero under counter freezers, yes I have 2 of those too, but there is also no emotional attachment. 

When they die, I will just buy another one to replaced, period. 

Very unlike my normal cars, I will never sell my 918, and my son told me not to sell the Turbo 3.6, that's because there IS emotional attachment there. My e-Tron is on a lease, there is zero attachment, when it's done it's done and I will get something else to replace it. Heck, I have more emotional attachment to my Honda pickup than the e-Tron. 

I wanted to hear explanation of why he believes EVs are commodities. There is only some much that automakers can accomplish to differentiate automobiles beyond interior and exterior design and fit and finish.  Some automakers, Porsche, for example, have the ability to alter vehicle dynamics based on weight distribution and polar inertia based on engine configuration and placement.  If a company like Porsche isn't able to inject a USP into the EV, then one agrees, the automobile is essentially dead.  However, early reviews of the Taycan suggest that this car is a devastatingly quick point-to-point car with enough quirkiness and charm to leave the thought of commodity behind.  

This is $64K question; can the auto industry make an EV have the emotional attachment that for example a manual transmission NA sports car has. Some would argue that even a PDK equipped vehicle removes this experience. Interesting times and probably more of billion dollar question, because if they cannot then they just become appliances.

Bingo 

The car market is not static and marketing assumptions of the past do not apply now and certainly not in the future. Once governments insinuated their rules and regulations regarding the cars we drive and HOW we drive them the culture of car buying is and will change dramatically. It’s true the old farts will prop up expensive EV vehicles but they’ll soon die off.

The younger generation and those after them have no interest in a car as a status symbol or indulgent comfort while driving in the city. They want to get from A to B in the most cost efficient way. Most are burdened with debt and good paying jobs hard to find. They would rather work their debt off and save for a family. 

Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.

You must know a different subset of Millennials than the ones around here.  

Agree with CGX.  I know it’s an unreliable sample, but everywhere I go in my Panamera, young folks give me a thumbs up or say Porsche is their dream car. Loads of Macans, Tesla X3s, new BMWs around which I assume are the choices of millennials and one of Porsche’s demographic targets.  I’m not saying that millennial’s don’t want just A to B transportation, but I think they also want fun and new styles/technologies in their cars.  Guess we’ll see

Millennials these days are all about posting 'lifestyle' videos or pictures on social media to obtain attention and envy. 

We might consider being successful as having a home with no mortgage, no car payment, enough money to retire, etc. These kids consider how many followers they have as a measure of success. Followers is the one and only gauge for them, it's all vanity and they don't care. 

Tesla was the 'in' thing for a few years, now it's gonna be the Porsche Taycan. Until a Rolls Royce EV, or whatever rapper/basketball player/social media socialite/youtube star drives and show off, then that will be the car to get for them again. 

Pretty cool marketing..

https://presse.porsche.de/prod/presse_pag/PressResources.nsf/Content?ReadForm&languageversionid=1019246&view=1

Latest spy pic...

Hilariously, the Tesla-dominate websites still have comments that the Taycan is vaporware.  Those that actually believe it is really going to production keep trying to make the Taycan out as a too expensive Model 3 competitor. Once the full statistics of the Taycan are revealed, many will require medical assistance to untangle their twisted limbs. 

We - the Tesla owners - are too busy getting a service appointment. No time for anything else at the moment :)

schmoell:

We - the Tesla owners - are too busy getting a service appointment. No time for anything else at the moment :)

So much for the myth that the million mile Tesla doesn’t require any service.  Read earlier this morning that one of the local Porsche dealerships upgraded to the latest Generation 4 format for the new Taycan.  This is a massive investment for a dealer that sells 400 new Porsches annually, though the have over 100 Taycans on order.  One benefit of a dealer franchise retail model is that the automaker uses other people’s money.  

The interior reveal was a few days back, but the gist of it here seems to be that a single giant screen that controls everything, including the dash vents, is a horrible idea, but that lots of little screens (one of which is also required just to control the dash vents) is great and we'll all learn where those smooth buttons are.  TheTacyan dash is basically 1965 Porsche imagining what a 1985 Porsche dash would look like.  For a true clean sheet design they could have looked back to the last true clean sheet and reimagined the 928 cockpit or asked what instruments are required.  Speed and range seem to be it--a clean dash with heads up for those two and a big screen for nav and entertainment seem a better solution.

waiting for PDK:

The interior reveal was a few days back, but the gist of it here seems to be that a single giant screen that controls everything, including the dash vents, is a horrible idea, but that lots of little screens (one of which is also required just to control the dash vents) is great and we'll all learn where those smooth buttons are.  TheTacyan dash is basically 1965 Porsche imagining what a 1985 Porsche dash would look like.  For a true clean sheet design they could have looked back to the last true clean sheet and reimagined the 928 cockpit or asked what instruments are required.  Speed and range seem to be it--a clean dash with heads up for those two and a big screen for nav and entertainment seem a better solution.

The interior design looks to me to be 1 part 918-Spyder and two parts Panamera Turbo S e-Hybrid.

I know it's not Tesla-iPad, but seems a modern evolution of what came just before.

--

Mike

918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

W8MM:

waiting for PDK:

The interior reveal was a few days back, but the gist of it here seems to be that a single giant screen that controls everything, including the dash vents, is a horrible idea, but that lots of little screens (one of which is also required just to control the dash vents) is great and we'll all learn where those smooth buttons are.  TheTacyan dash is basically 1965 Porsche imagining what a 1985 Porsche dash would look like.  For a true clean sheet design they could have looked back to the last true clean sheet and reimagined the 928 cockpit or asked what instruments are required.  Speed and range seem to be it--a clean dash with heads up for those two and a big screen for nav and entertainment seem a better solution.

The interior design looks to me to be 1 part 918-Spyder and two parts Panamera Turbo S e-Hybrid.

I know it's not Tesla-iPad, but seems a modern evolution of what came just before.

--

 

Mike

 

918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

Which, in shorten terms, means it's absolute SHIT!!!!!!!

The 918 is already bad, the Panamera Turbo S is WORSE!

If one is an undergrad student taking human ergonomics class, and asked to design a human/car interface and present the professor with either the 918 or the Panamera PCM interface, one will get -300$ marks. Absolute fail and prohibited to ever take the course again. 

Heck, any interface with a touch button/screen will get a automatic fail. 

They SIMPLY DO NOT WORK!!!!!

--

“ Well, besides that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?”

If the car isn't that good, I would have totally asked for a refund.

I only tolerate the awful system because the car just drives so damn good.

The Panamera Turbo S can be a total drama queen when pushed. But it will be a quiet submissive in the corner if you drive it in EV mode. This is a complete car, best of both the EV and the ICE world. Nothing comes close.

Name another car that will do 40km in EV mode in the city THEN another 600-700km on top on the highway with 4 adults and their luggages in comfort. AND turn in lap times that will embarrassed 75% if not 80% of the 'Sports Car' on the market. There is not suppose to be such a unicorn on Earth. My 918 can only do 15-20km in the city plus another 300-400km on the highway with only 2 adults in a straitjacket and 2 backpacks. 

In hybrid mode on the highway, the 918 will do ~450 miles before it's out of gas and juice, I proved that on my road trip to Vegas. I can totally see the Panamera Turbo S achieve close to 600 miles if not more in hybrid mode, that's almost 1000km on a tank of gas and charge, that's diesel territory.

No. Pure. EV. Will. Ever. Come. Close. Ever. Ever.

https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/02/watch-the-porsche-taycan-make-a-0-90-0-test-run-on-the-uss-hornet-flight-deck/

Thanks for posting neunelf! Here is the movie without needing to log in on that website:

--

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

Thank you Joost!

Perspective: Motor Trend recorded a time of 10.2 seconds for the 0-100-0 dash for the latest version of the Tesla Model S Ludicrous; however, the Taycan has also demonstrated repeatability, something the Tesla cannot do.  The same publication stated it takes about 10 minutes for the Tesla to cool down between acceleration runs, plus also note they conducted this test on a prepared drag strip and used a 1 foot rollout.  The Taycan may, under similar conditions, come exceedingly close to the Tesla times.  

According to a member (soly20) from Netherlands:
Models at first launch (dealer mail):
4S: €109.000
Turbo: €157.000
Turbo S: €192.000
Price is for the Netherlands.

Boyko23:

According to a member (soly20) from Netherlands:
Models at first launch (dealer mail):
4S: €109.000
Turbo: €157.000
Turbo S: €192.000
Price is for the Netherlands.

Porsche could be more creative with their first EV vehicle names  Turbo and Turbo S for EV, sounds ridiculous  

 I know it’s inevitable, but I’m sick and tired of the Tesla versus Taycan comparison. It’s always about dragstrip type times. Since 1965, I’ve heard these types of comparisons between Porsche and Corvette, Porsche and Dodge, Porsche and Chrysler, etc. Mature people should know and understand that  Porsche is far more than a dragstrip, stop light acceleration car. I’m not going to bore people here with the difference in sportiness, racing history, handling,reliability,driving dynamics, etc., but damn it these are different cars for different customers.

Wonderbar:

 I know it’s inevitable, but I’m sick and tired of the Tesla versus Taycan comparison. It’s always about dragstrip type times. Since 1965, I’ve heard these types of comparisons between Porsche and Corvette, Porsche and Dodge, Porsche and Chrysler, etc. Mature people should know and understand that  Porsche is far more than a dragstrip, stop light acceleration car. I’m not going to bore people here with the difference in sportiness, racing history, handling,reliability,driving dynamics, etc., but damn it these are different cars for different customers.

fully agree. Very different cars for very different people with different needs. They share the same type of engine, as does a Toyota Corolla and a 911

Wonderbar:

 I know it’s inevitable, but I’m sick and tired of the Tesla versus Taycan comparison. It’s always about dragstrip type times. Since 1965, I’ve heard these types of comparisons between Porsche and Corvette, Porsche and Dodge, Porsche and Chrysler, etc. Mature people should know and understand that  Porsche is far more than a dragstrip, stop light acceleration car. I’m not going to bore people here with the difference in sportiness, racing history, handling,reliability,driving dynamics, etc., but damn it these are different cars for different customers.

That's only the Americans. Well North Americans. 

They consider a car fast if they can get to the next stop light quickest. 

That and how fast a car can do left turns 

McQueen:

Boyko23:

According to a member (soly20) from Netherlands:
Models at first launch (dealer mail):
4S: €109.000
Turbo: €157.000
Turbo S: €192.000
Price is for the Netherlands.

Porsche could be more creative with their first EV vehicle names  Turbo and Turbo S for EV, sounds ridiculous  

Yes, but over the last 2+ decades those have become trim level names. When one hears Turbo S, one automatically knows that's the top level performance and trim.

I would rather they do this than invent new trim names that needs decades to sink in.